You processed 2.2 million dollars in half a year and you still do not know you have nothing when you ship to any other address than the billing address. I think you are very lucky that this minuscule amount is all you lost until now.

”You have the thiefs IP addess, that leads to a AOL subscribers account, you have the address the goods were sent and received and the a USPS signature of the person that signed for it”

None of these means anything. All these are the fraudster’s details — nothing to do with the actual cardholder. Hence they would serve no purpose in reversing or doing a rebuttal on a chargeback. I don’t think anyone can help you with this case — be it 2co, your bank, your merchant account provider, etc.

2co does not profit from refunding an order. Refunding an order costs money as well. And high amounts of refunds can get a merchant account terminated by the provider. So nobody is in this refund-and-make-money business.

It is also your job to verify your client and order as in any sort of business. Think of it this way: You are selling computer parts and you have a POS machine in your shop. A client walks in, buys some items, pays with his card. Wouldn’t you check his signature and the signature on the card, or his ID if the amount is high or if he looks suspicious? Or you leave it all to the POS machine provider (probably your local bank)? Of course they do due dilligence, check if card passes their security checks… But they have no idea who the person in your shop is and who the cardholder is or what exactly he is purchasing.

I am baffled to see you are able to sell millions of dollars without having basic notion of business. Well… Internet. You get to see everything.

Somebody : $12.000 2CO fees translate in a little over $200.000 sales, not 2 millions.
To almost quote you : I am baffled to see you are able to do business without having basic notion of MATH. Well… Internet. You get to see everything.

LOL

Somebody i assume you mustn’t have read the entire post, don’t blame you, it is pretty long. My point isn’t to reverse the credit card charge, it wasn’t even about the card holder, it was about going after the person who committed the act of fraud.

”You have the thiefs IP addess, that leads to a AOL subscribers account, you have the address the goods were sent and received and the a USPS signature of the person that signed for it”

Yes the above does mean a lot, its actually enough for the police to build a case.

Somebody you are wrong about 2CO profitting from fraud, the simple rationale being that when a sale occurs 2CO takes 5.5% of the sale – 94.5% of the sale is put into MY ACCOUNT – when a full refund of sale occurs 100% of the total sale is removed from MY ACCOUNT – on a full refund a vendor loses 105.5% – when 2CO takes their fee a portion is their profit and they never return this – hence why they profit from fraud!

Your points about validating sales at who own a POS are right, but the real reason why people who have their own merchant account verify sales is because they are actually contractually obligated by their merchant provider.

In the case of 2CO, when they signed their contract with their merchant provider, somewhere on their contract it would have stated that 2CO has the sole responsibility of verifying sales and no one else. This is why when vendors sign up and agree to the terms of service, no where does it say a vendor is obligated to validate sales – as it is not the vendors job, legally, it is 2CO who must.

Don’t believe me, go find any merchant account provider online and read their full disclosure of service, it will state the merchant holder has the sole responsibility to verify the sales – the way 2CO does this, their automated fraud screening – guess what its seriously flawed.

The point of me making this entire post is that i requested 2CO to help in actually pursuing this fraud, i even quoted their employees on their forum stating that 2CO, at the request of any vendor, contact legal authorities to build a case against the thief.

I was then clearly told, contrary to what they inform vendors and potential vendors, that they would not help, they said it was a small amount. Frankly i saw no where in any of that employees post anything about how much i should loose before 2CO will help and to me it should not matter, fraud is fraud be it $1 or $1,000,000.

If they aren’t willing to help me when clearly they can, then guess what readers, don’t expect them to help, don’t even expect them to do a good job in screening out or verifying legitamate sales.

We have here a case contrary to what employees told vendors in another post regarding fraud, when employees went on about how 2CO handles fraud and how they can help vendors that are victim of fraud, we have in reality the complete and total opposite.

’Somebody’ i read your previous posts on the madison thing, i have never met a ’vendor’ so passionate about 2CO other then their own employees.

”I am baffled to see you are able to do business without having basic notion of MATH. Well… Internet. You get to see everything.”

Never tought my expertise area would ever get myself ridiculed in front of everyone. Touch of devil I guess… $666 being the value of the transaction. )))))

”Somebody i assume you mustn’t have read the entire post, don’t blame you, it is pretty long.”

I read it entirely.

”Yes the above does mean a lot, its actually enough for the police to build a case.”

It means nothing. AOL accounts are obtained easily by carders… IP addresses are proxies running half way across the world… Address is a drop point… You have nothing and it is for a reason that they do not want to fight windmills for you.

”when 2CO takes their fee a portion is their profit and they never return this – hence why they profit from fraud!”

That is wrong. A refund is just like any other transaction. They still have to pay gateway fees, transaction fees, discount rate, etc. So the fees they collected from you goes back to pay refund expenses. And if their profit is not 100%, they would actually lose money. Because their cost is doubled. And like I said, no one likes to risk their merchant accounts. High number or refunds are grounds for account termination. No one is in this refund-and-make-money business as you suggested. 2co does not profit… But you lose money. That is why you must watch out to protect your own business.

”where does it say a vendor is obligated to validate sales – as it is not the vendors job, legally, it is 2CO who must.”

Get real please.

”Frankly i saw no where in any of that employees post anything about how much i should loose before 2CO will help and to me it should not matter, fraud is fraud be it $1 or $1,000,000.”

It matters. Going after windmills costs money, time and resources. Please use common sense when doing any kind of business transaction. There is nothing to be done against small scale, unorganized fraud. That is why a person running a business must take matters into his hands and perform due dilligence before relying on a 3rd party.

”’Somebody’ i read your previous posts on the madison thing, i have never met a ’vendor’ so passionate about 2CO other then their own employees.”

Quote an example please.

All i did was to disperse some parasites using this site to get hits to their own sites at the expense of the vendors so that now when you post, you can get the attention you deserve.

Well Somebody your basically saying if fraud happens, don’t bother to do anything, role over and take it, anyone would say the first thing to do is to file a complaint, maybe nothing will happen, or maybe they can catch the person committing it, but to sit and do nothing and just partner with a company that does nothing but at the same time profits at your loss – that makes no sense.

Your logic does not make any sense, if i have to pay for refund fees levied by 2CO merchant provider (which i am 100% sure isn’t 5.5%), 2CO is still retaining profit. If they don’t return the fee they took, which a portion of it will be their profit, and i am made to pay again for the fees they took, guess what they still retain the profit.

It costs them money to go after issues that are ’windmills’, i don’t give a damm it was their inept ’state of the art’ fraud screening system that failed, if i am paying 5.5% of my transactions to them, for a service that they sell as having better customer service and helping vendors, guess what i want them to spend their time and money fighting fraud. Any payment facilitator that leaves their customers open to fraud should not be tolerated, ever.

Heres a thought, if 2CO makes no effort to stop this person, it sends a message that he can get away with defrauding any site that use 2CO, not to act only encourages people like this.

It makes no matter i have filed a BBB complaint, if you are a reader and have experienced the same problem, or you have felt 2CO could have done more to protect or mishandled the situation the case number with the Columbus, OH BBB is 70035760. I would rather have the BBB in this and see if what 2CO has done comply with business standards and if 2CO has failed in anyway.

You have flawed logic.

I suggest you take this opportunity to learn and improve your business instead of wasting your time on useless stuff. Like I said, you are lucky that you carried on almost a year without incuring huge losses and this must be a wake-up call for you.

Otherwise, good luck in life.

Rico

Somebody you seem to be a bitter and cynical person, i hope my business or events in my life never make me like you.

Speaking as one who spent many (18) years working in law enforcement IN THE STATE WHERE 2CHECKOUT IS LOCATED I can pretty much state that the shipping address and the UPS signature record are MORE THAN ENOUGH to open a criminal investigation into credit card fraud. 2Checkout is just trying to not get involved.

thatmp4guy: ther U.S. Secret Service is the Federal agency charged with investigating identity theft/credit card fraud. Drop them an email with the details.

I think that if you have an AOL IP and a UPS signature i agree as well with garyreibert. Someone signed the order, someone in some address received the package. Since the address is Miami and the Zip Code sounds familiar i can tell you that is probably is a Shipping box that ships then outside the US. You should contact and find out on Google earth or call the Miami Police to find out more. Also call UPS they can give you an image of the firm and describe the description.

Sounds like mp4guy would be happier going with a different payment processor.
Sounds like a plan.

Lol, funny thing is i had another order come back as fraudulent not long after the above rant – but this one came through as a charge back – i submitted the delivery confirmation and the credit card company reversed the charge – i like how the credit card company of the buyer are more on my side than 2Checkout is.

IF YOU EVER GET A MESSAGE FROM 2CO REQUEST YOU TO REFUND A ORDER DUE TO FRAUD – ESPECIALLY IF ITS FOR TANGIBLE GOODS THAT YOU SENT WITH TRACKING – PRESS THEM NOT TO ISSUE A REFUND AND TELL THEM TO ALLOW IT TO GOTO CHARGEBACK!! – WELL THATS MY ADVISE.

What do you sell? Why are people want to rip you off like that. I would call the customer and tell him you are going to sue him for the time and charges he made you spent. If the card company gave you the money back, you are lucky this time but that doesnt mean that there was a second person that tried to rob you.

Hello,

I’ve been using PayPal for a long time and I have had nearly 10 charge backs placed on my account and out of those 10 chargebacks 8 of them have been reverse chargebacks. (as in, first a refund is sent to the buyer and then the charge back is canceled and the fund is back to me). 2CO is sad in this case.

Go to webhostingtalk.com and read your pathetic reviews. Forget people recommending, everyone there is yelling not to choose your service. Beat that now!

The problem with your service seems that you have LAZY STAFF in your fraud department. They are too eager to finish their work and go home. Not bothered to see who is actually the culprit. You are too quick to act on these issues without waiting on what the vendor has to say.

Cliff your staff are either lazy or incompetant, i’ve been with 2CO long enough to know it is one or the other – when your staff member contacted florida police they asked to place charges of Fruad – this would be appropriate if I was selling intangible goods. I got off the phone today with same police department and they said when it deals with tangible goods the person should have asked to places charges of theft.

Below is the link to BBB complaint and you can see where the 2CO employee says they asked to places charges of fraud and that the police responded that it wasn’t enough value to follow through. However, when i spoke to the police dept, they informed me if they had asked to place charges of theft, the value of the good would have been enough to warrant action – so is this case of your employees being incompetent or lazy?

https://columbus.ebindr.com/complaint/view/70035760/c/mdv626#

I also have email proof from Sebbe stating that the first thing a 2CO fraud department is to do when a customer calls claiming a order is fraudulent is to refund the order – WITHOUT EVEN PROPERLY INVESTIGATING.

Heres a simple rational, if the ’buyer’ waits till an item is delivered to dispute a charge, 99.99% chance that they were the ones that placed the order – i have had other orders placed that were fraudulent and the actual card owner almost always call 2CO within a 2 – 5 days to inform the order is fraudulent – any person that waits 3 weeks and only after the items arrives is probably just trying to get a refund – i assume this is what credit card companies also assume, hence why they reversed the fraudulent charge back.

2Checkout needs to establish better guidelines on how to handle potential disputes, especially for tangible goods, in regards to fraud, like PayPal has. I am also pretty sure the reason why 2Checkout does not allow possible cases of fraud to be disputed through charge backs, is to hide from their issuing bank the extent of fraud on their system.

BTW Cliff or Sebbe i emailed you about two weeks ago, with no reply, if i do not receive a reply shortly i will start another BBB complaint – i expect the fee taken for that fraudulent echeck to be returned, seeing how it is your systems fault (and not my fault) for not being able to stop a echeck from going to deposit – i even have an email from lhillman stating the fault is due to 2Checkouts system. I don’t expect you to make money off your mistakes at my expense.

in response to how to have saved me thousands by your fraud screening process, i would like to clearly point out that for almost all the orders that your fraud screening takes out those orders originate from Ghana – your regular Africa scammers – you can check them yourselves, even if they went through, i would never have fulfilled them. Of the few that do not originate from Ghana, some are placed by legitatmate buyers, after they find out their order never went through, i instruct them to call 2CO to dispute that they aren’t fraudulent, i normally then get some email from 2CO stating they’ve spoken to the customer and that the customer will be replacing the order and isn’t fraudulent.

My claims are neither ridiculous or false – i am stating exactly what flaws your system has and i can back any of my claims with proof either from email conversations with 2CO or if you want i can pull up ever order that failed to pass through 2CO fraud system and tell you exactly how many of them originated from Africa scammers and how many did not.

Now Im getting nervous about this thing… How does will 2CO prevent other sellers from being Swindled by this method by any customer who actually place the orders, (with his own or with a stolen credit card) waits the seller to send to tangible product, and then call 2CO saying that he didnt make the charges on his credit card and doesnt know the seller neither authorized the transaction… How can we (the vendors) be protected by 2CO against this???….

Its obvious that we cant get a clue of fraud if the shipping adress is not the same as billing adress because there are people that needs the item to be shipped to a different adress…. Now im getting worried about this!!!….

What people says about it?? It is imortant to know because it happen to the vendor THATMP4GUY ( SEE FORUM TITLE ” am a victim of blatent fraud and this is what 2CO did to help me READ!!!!!!!!!”) and IT can happen to us….

It is VERRY important to 2CO to take actions on this issues because it is a verry easy method of fraud from the customer iF 2CO doesnt take actions to protect the vendor.. Guess 2CO should call randomly a porcentage of all the customers card holders to verificate that the orders eventually was placed so then of that there can not be a claim fromt the customer!!! Even if the order is has a Risk of Cero… What you people think of this!!!???

It is verry important to US all the vendors to be informed of this fraud method, and it is important to 2CO to Know that this method is usable for people who wants to make a fraud… Thank you Verry much!.. Waiting for the response of the people….. We Know 2CO cant prevent 100% of frauds but i think that if they Know the method ”at all” you can take actions to prevent that specific method of fraud or to make that the Fraud method doesnt be that easy!!

2CO prevent an important % of frauds, but would really like to know the rate of this method of fraud that is being stopped…

hh nc fctnl stff wrt Clnt – th fllwng cn bck wth prf f mls wrttn b 2C stff tht cntrdct wht mst f Clnt wrt.

”1)D nt shp nthng t tht hs nt gn thgh r frd rvw.”

s gss ths s vld, bt cnsdrng r stt-f-th-frd rvw lws psss rdrs tht dn’t rgnt frm frc n wthn 6hrs t th mst, shppng rdrs t bfr th pss rvw shldn’t b prblm.

”2) Lk fr hg dscrpnc’s n th bllng ddrss nd shppng ddrss.”

Shldn’t r stt-f-th-rt-frd rvw b cpbl f ths… mn wld thnk ths wld b knd f bvs thng t hv n frd rvwng prgrm – t th vr lst flg fr mnl rvw. m lmst 100% sr PPl ds.

”3)f r nsr bt n rdr cntct th cstmr r 2Chckt.
W cn cntct th cstmr fr mr nfrmtn r rqst dcmnts.”

BLLSHT BLLSHT H LRD WHT LD F BLLSHT – Clnt f ddn’t wrt n. 3, wld nvr hv rpld, tht sttmnt pssd m ff t n nd.

Gss wht hpp rdrs hd tw sls fr qt bt f mn tht skd 2Chckt t vrf, wht ws thr rpl, smpl tht shld chck mslf nd tht f flt tht th wr frdlnt tht shld cncl thm – bck thn wsn’t rll sr hw t vrf sls prprl s hd t cncl thm. Ths wsn’t jst whn strtd, hd dn vr $100,000 n trnsctns t tht tm. S whts p wth tht Clnt, wr r stff jst bng lz?

Ths s rl vndr sttng xctl wht hppnd whn skd fr 2Chckt t vrf sl. Sttmnt 3, m srr, frm rl xprnc, s cmplt bllsht!

”4)Gt trckng nmbr nd sgn cnfrmtn whn shp r pckgs.
f hv ths nfrmtn nd bnk dspt hppns t wll b mch
sr t fght.”

Hhhh grt jk. Cnsdrng tht 2C hts th rfnd bttn th mmnt br ttrs th wrd chrgbck, ths s nl gd f th th br ntts chrgbck wtht tlkng t 2C frst.

”W mpl sm f th bst frd mnds,”

Rl crck sqd gt thr, th dn’t sm t rlz tht whn dlng n tngbl gds nd tlkng t cps bt prssng chrgs, th shld sk t prss chrgs f THFT nd NT frd!

Th bttm ln – 2Chckt s grt n frlls pmnt sstm (r whtvr th cll thm slvs), BT THR S N PRTCTN FR TH VNDR WHT S VR – f cn ndrstnd nd br th brnt f vldtng rdrs, thn wll lk 2C.

d hv PPl Hng Kng ccnt fr nthr st nd cld s t n th st s 2C, bt s mch s 2C cn b pn, PPl s 100% wrs.

Th bnfts nd th thngs lk bt thm tw th rsks…

…bt th cld d LT bttr.

I don’t think it was riddled with swear words, six in a row to point out a statement IS VERY UNTRUE is not excessive. So you couldn’t just have removed the 6 swear words? oh well below is what i wrote without the swearing – i still want a explanation of No3!

Nice fictional stuff wrote Clint – the following can be backed with proof of emails written by 2O staff that contradict what most of Clint wrote.

”1)Do not ship anything out that has not gone though our fraud review.”

I guess this is valid, but considering your state-of-the-art-fraud review allows anything to pass that doesn’t originate from Africa within 6hrs at the most, shipping orders before they pass review shouldn’t be a problem.

”2) Look for huge discrepancy’s in the billing address and shipping address.”

Shouldn’t your state-of-the-art-fraud review be capable of this… i mean i would think this would be kind of obvious thing to have on a fraud reviewing program – or at the very least flag the sale for manual review. I am almost 100% sure PayPal does this.

3)If you are unsure about an order contact the customer or 2Checkout.
We can contact the customer for more information or request documents.

<REMOVE PROFANITY> THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS UNTRUE, BELOW IS MY EXPERIENCE – EITHER THEY ARE LIEING OR THE STAFF THAT LOOKED AT MY EMAIL FOR THE ABOVE TYPE REQUEST WAS JUST LAZY, TAKE YOUR PICK.

Guess what happy readers i had two sales for quite a bit of money and i asked 2CO to verify, what was their reply, simply that i should check myself and that is i felt they were fraudulent i should cancel them – back then i wasn’t really sure how to verify sales properly and had to cancel them. This just wasn’t when i started, i had done over $100,000 in transactions at that time. So whats up with that, were your staff just being lazy?

I am a real vendor and NO. 3 is not true! If you are read No. 3 and think they will help you verify your sale, then keep in mind what they said to me when i asked.

”4)Get a tracking number and sign confirmation when you ship your packages.
If you have this information and a bank dispute happens it will be much
easier to fight.”

Hahaha great joke. Considering that 2CO hits the refund button the moment a buyer utters the word charge back, having tracking information is only good if the buyer issues a charge back when they haven’t spoken to 2CO.

”We employ some of the best fraud minds”

Real sharp minds you got here, they didn’t seem to realize that when dealing with tangible goods and when requesting police to press charges, they should ask for THEFT and not FRAUD (see taking tangible goods without paying is actually called stealing aka THEFT NOT FRAUD).

The bottom line – 2Checkout is a great no frills payment system (or whatever they call themselves), BUT THEIR IS NO PROTECTION FOR THE VENDOR – WHATSOEVER – if you can understand and accept the duty of validating orders yourself, you will like 2CO more than services like PayPal.

You also have to be willing to email them and not take their ’No’ for an answer, remember its YOUR money at stake in the end.

The benefits and the things i like about 2CO out way the risks in using their service…

…but they could do ALOT better.

”In almost every case the vendor is given time to refund the sale first.
If the vendor does not contact us back we take the best course of action to keep the fees minimal for them.”

Oh thats just a lie – why, because i have been with 2CO to know this is not true – EXAMPLE – what did i wake up to today, a refund, why, because the customer asked for one, did your CS rep email me first to ask for tracking or any other info, nope – exact reason for refund given by the rep on the refund email:

3844883025
”Additional comments: Refunded per customer request”

Sorry but i wasn’t given any time.

BTW the item is enroute to the customer i expect the refund to be canceled, tell your CS rep if what the above you wrote is true to contact the vendor first and see if they can provide any tracking or such!

i did see that the customer filed a dispute with paypal – if 2CO response to dispute over paypal payments is to refund immediately, then i am appauled. Please do not insult my intelligence by thinking i don’t know how PayPal handles their disputes, i know that if you give paypal the tracking i forwarded with a note saying it’s enroute, they would close the dispute in favor of me and not issue a refund.

(you see they (PayPal) actually are in favor of protecting their sellers through a well developed dispute system)

I completely agree with thatmp4guy. As a vendor of tangible goods I do not feel secure with your service.

I don’t get it. I haven’t been in business for very long so I have yet to run into any problems with fraud *knock on wood* but really, it’s the internet… I expect to see some and realize that if I get ripped off a few times it’s the cost of doing business. And it would make life really hard for a while if someone ripped me off for a couple of high priced items, but I know that is possible and accepted the risk when I went into business.

So I went into a lower fraud business (furnishings and decor as opposed to e-goods or jewelry.) And I am building my business such that the numbers of customers will increase slowly. And I completely scrutinize any order I get for anything that looks odd. (I know that won’t be possible forever, but I’m low volume at this point so I can.) But really, I don’t have any experience with fraud, and I don’t have the money to quit my day job, much less hire my own fraud team. So it makes sense to sign up with someone who does. (2checkout, for example)

Chargebacks happen. Fraud happens. And if entreprenuaral ventures were perfectly, you-can’t-lose-anything-at-all secure, then everyone would be in business. And I don’t see why y’all blame 2Checkout for the risk that you decided to take when you decided to open a business.

What more do you want 2Checkout to do? It’s one thing to sit around and kvetch about this… why don’t you try suggesting an occational solution?

Well guys looks like 2CO policy for ANY dispute through paypal is to issue a refund right away

for order 3844883025, the buyer placed a PAYPAL dispute, did 2CO use PayPals system that PROTECTS their vendors, nope, they didn’t bother to ask me for valid tracking, which i would have given, if so Paypal would have closed the dispute in my favor and no refund would have happened.

Please don’t come back by saying you issued a refund because i didn’t reply to the first CS email, if you had contacted me stating a dispute had been filed via paypal and that i needed to provide tracking, i would have replied right away. Sorry but that dec 12 cs must have been caught in the back log due to xmas.

So what did happen, 2CO closed the dispute themselves by issuing the buyer a refund, at my expense, after i wrote on here what they did, 2CO emailed the buyer asking them to either not accept the package, or if they do to repay.

Guess what the buyer did get the package, they haven’t repayed and they aren’t responding to my emails, now i am out cold hard cash for a tangible good.

So, Cliff, Julie, Sebbe and any other 2CO staff that have been jumping in on this thread trying to convince any reader here you guys are for the vendor, what are you going to do now?

The worst part about this is that PayPal has a VERY well developed system for evaluating disputes – in this case it would have 100% have been in my favor. THIS MORE THAN ANYTHING PROVES 2CO DOES NOT CARE FOR VENDOR PROTECTION – IF THEY DID THEY WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED PAYPALS SYSTEM TO EVALUATE THE DISPUTE!

Wow this is pretty scary, 50% of my sales are paid through 2CO via PayPal. So correct me if i am wrong 2CO on the next statement:

2CO WILL REFUND RIGHT AWAY ANY SALES THAT HAVE A PAYPAL DISPUTE PLACED ON THEM, WITHOUT EVEN BOTHERING TO SUBMIT TRACKING OR ASKING THE VENDOR FOR ANY THING ELSE.