Hi,
2checkout is very quick (as they were today) to issue a refund to a customer, but what about when the customer is out and out fraudulent. I’m not talking about someone using a fake card, I’m talking about a verified customer lying.
Today, I was corresponding with a customer who wrote in, unhappy with one of our policies. I wrote a reply within 20 minutes explaining why our policy existing, but as soon as I hit “send,” I noticed a mail for 2checkout saying that the order had been refunded! The explanation – the customer claimed she hadn’t made the order.
I know this to be untrue, because I was just corresponding with her! I wrote to 2checkout about this, asking them to investigate, entered comments in the order details, wrote to them again, and I have received no reply.
I guess it’s always the merchant who has to pay for fraud. I would have given the customer a partial refund, but I never had the chance. 2checkout unilaterally reached into my pocket for me!
I wouldn’t use the forum to air this complaint except that 2checkout hasn’t bothered to respond.
Has anyone had similar experiences?
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thank you for raising the question of Friendly Fraud. This is a problem that not only 2Checkout vendors have to deal with, but that any supplier or Internet merchant must deal with.
When a customer calls in and claims that an order is fraudulent, there are things that come into play that we have to consider. The first thing is “are we being told the truth”. The customer can tell us one thing, and then turn around and tell their card company another. The next thing you know, we have a Chargeback.
Each case has to be handled as an individual case. I would like to discuss with you the aspects of the case that you are referring to. You can contact me at 877-294-0273 and ask for Geno.
You state that you have not received a response. If you submitted a ticket, pleas be advised that at times of high volume, it can take up to 48hrs for a response.
I look forward to talking to you.
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I hope given the circumstances, that 2Checkout pursues legal actions against the customer, and doesn’t simply sweep it aside as your cost of doing business.
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This is a very interesting topic, which brings up other topics. I’m the 4th person to touch this thread and already we’ve got two separate topics.
First topic, “friendly fraud”. This is a very fuzzy area of the business we’re all a part of.
When the Internet first came about, the paradigm of the brick and mortar authorization scheme was just simply copied to ecommerce. However, in a Card-Not-Present environment, the merchant is liable if the transaction turns out to be fraudulent.
Many of our vendors are new to selling online. What has to be understood is that selling on line is very different then selling at a store front.
The customer is not coming into your store, and signing a receipt. The customer is not taking the product off the shelf, paying for it, and going home with proof of purchase in hand. And though there are ways to prove tangible goods sent to the address on the order, that address matching the address the CC company has on file. On the opposite side of the spectrum, vendors selling intangible products, goods, and services do not have the same concrete confirmation of the fulfillment of an order going to the actual card holder.
I know I’m adding a lot of information to this post, and I don’t want to get ahead of myself. But this is all information that a seller on line needs to familiarize themselves with.
Unfortunately there is no black and white resolution to the issue of ‘friendly fraud’
There are times we are able to leave it up to the vendor as to whether they want to take the risk of said order being disputed. Other times, there is nothing we can do but refund the order. As a vendor if your Bank Assisted Dispute (chargeback) percentages get to an unacceptable level, this could cause higher fees, higher reserve, and in the end the possibility of account closure. 2Checkout tries to assist in fraud detection and prevention so not to allow these extremes to come to fruition.
Lastly, in regards to pursuing legal action against the customer. There are not a lot of avenues provided to take legal action. 2Checkout works with the FBI from time to time on cases of fraud and other things. However in small cases like this it is actually suggested that the vendor contact their local authority and have a report filed. Again, this is an avenue where you will find your local authority also has a lot of red tape to cut through. And may not be able to accomplish the results we all hope for. At the same time however, its not a bad idea to still at least file a report, become more familiar with how the process works. Gain a relationship with your local authority who handles on line fraud (if there is one). This way if real fraud hits you and you want to try to track that fraudster down, you will have assistance in your reporting of Internet crime.
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So, basically, too bad for me.
I understand 2co’s position, but I think you should have checked with me first before believing someone who just called up and cancelled an order. I might well have shipped something! (Happily, I’m one of those people who sell “intangible” goods.)
I’m also not thrilled that after trying to correspond with the person who informed me that I’d been robbed of $100, you tell me that I have to submit a ticket. Your customer service people ALWAYS respond by email when it’s a customer who has a problem — but when it’s me, who pays you a hefty fee for each transaction, you suggest that I use the ticket system. That’s not right.
Finally I would suggest that 2co employees who use this forum identify themselves as such, instead of just as “members” like everyone else. It’s useful to know this, and slightly deceitful not to do so. I offer this as a suggestion for this new forum, not as a criticism.
Mike
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Nearly a year later and in the last 5 months I have lost over USD$800 to fraudsters thru to checkout. I have shipped to billing address, but someone else signed for package so, I have no case. Customers wait until they get the package and then simply say they know nothing about it, even after showing email correspondence and calling the listed card number, as I safe.
With over 3 years with Paypal I have had no chargeback issues and when there is a dispute, it is resolved within a period, not simply sending back the money as if a $500 chargeback is a $10 order. I simply feel that something more can be done. I have had 2checkout tell me that the AVS was not matched on the credit card. Hell, if you take the order and pass it then darn well check the AVV/AVS number or at least inform me that you have not done so then I could have made the decision not to ship the order. Where I am now with 2checkout, I am simply going to clear up the deficit which this last forced chargeback has caused.
Even worse, 2checkout has never provided me with info that my refund rating was too high, so even when there policy states no chargeback fees when 2checkout has authorized the order, beware, as if you have been making a few refunds ( as per customer requests), you will still be hit with a $50 fee. Paypal, they allow refunds because they know it cuts down on customer drama, and better yet, Paypal refunds the fee. Even if a customer changes their mind, 2checkout still sticks me with the fee.
You know I used to be ahppy that 2chekout allows me to make more sales than with Paypal alone, but now I know it is NOT worth it as I am forced to make refunds and stand cahrgebacks in cases that the order has been verified shipped. Not only do I lose the cash but I actually have sent out the goods. So I believe that right now I am not an happy 2checkout camper….
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I agree Mike. The forum will soon be updated to show whether the user is a “Member”, and when the user is “2CO Staff”.
And, not only too bad for you, but too bad for all of us who sell online. Until the credit card companies recognize the importance of ecommerce business, and the unfairness of leaving the merchant (or seller) liable on fraud losses, we will continue to experience the unethical behavior of people. As we know however, business is run by money, not ethics.
All of that said though, what I’m most concerned with is 2checkout and our vendors.
And you are right Mike, the lack of proper communication can be extremely aggravating.
We’ve come a long way in improving all facets of our departments within 2CO. Of course we still have room to improve, in this forever evolving, undefined world of internet business.
We’re confident that with this new community of 2co users, we’ll receive exactly what we’ve gotten so far in this first week of the new site. Constructive criticism, and suggestions on improvement.
One last thing I would like to mention, if you have what you feel to be a fraud related issue, you are welcome to contact our fraud dept. directly at fraud@2co.com. Which can be a very helpful resource.
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Mike, I feel for you here. You’ve clearly been left powerless.
I know that 2CO needs to inject their authority sometimes, but perhaps 2CO forget that some people actually like to explain themselves with justification to their customers.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that this situation could have became uglier. So it’s perhaps a good thing that 2CO terminated the matter quickly. But just as this lady is a customer, so is Mike, so am I and every other 2CO certified merchant.
In order to reach 100% professionalism, it may not hurt for 2CO to converse with their own customers before emailing the third party as quick as they possibly can.
Richard.
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I am a little confused.
With the contracts that we all have with 2Checkout, does it not mean that 2Checkout is the victim of the fraud?
They are taking the orders and payment. We are just providing the goods on behalf of 2Checkout. We are the distributor, and we are drop shipping if you will.
In that case, I don’t beleive there is anything we can do legally. I don’t beleive we were the victims of fraud. 2Checkout would be the victims and 2Checkout is just passing that loss on to us. It would be 2Checkout’s responsibility to go after them legally.
Can I get some clarification on this?
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If a vendor wishes to initiate legal action against a
customer/fraudster, the vendor should contact the 2Checkout Fraud
Department. Our Fraud Dept. would then attempt to contact the
authorities to build a case against the customer/fraudster. I didn’t
make that clear earlier, I apologize.
There have been few cases that have been reported, and investigated.
Remember, one of the risks of doing business is the cost of fraud.
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2checkout does not stand behind their vendors. They simply refund the payment no matter what. I had one customer who bought a product used it for 10 months and then decided they did not want it anymore. They told 2checkout they did not want the product anymore. 2checkout told them to send the product to them at 2checkout and then refunded the customer the full amount including shipping. Then 2CO emailed me and told me to send money to them to ship it back to me. At least with all other merchants including paypal they fight the dispute and win the majority of the time. 2CO says they will not fight the dispute to save their vendor the $10 bank fee it will incur. Guess what?? I will pay the $10 everytime if thats what it takes. Anyone else willing to pay that fee???? Think about it.
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@Bartman
I have been with 2CO for 1 and half years and i agree with you %100, but you do not need to believe me, its in their own vendor agreement, although its all legal jargon it basically says vendors will fork out all costs and buyers will get their money back no matter what, and what ever sales policy we have on our site doesn’t matter.
My business is at a point that i don’t think i can be with this company too much longer, its not because of their higher fees, i can deal with the lack of respect i get from the staff, i am even willing to accept the fact that they will place a hold and stop transaction on my site for the stupidest things (even after being with them for a year), but i will leave because they DO NOT PROTECT THE VENDORS.
If you do not understand why, then read and join this thread asking about refunds, i am sure the answer to the question i asked is no. 2. 2CO has no vested reason to protect vendors as they retain their fee even in the case of a refund. Companies like PayPal do protected their vendors as they refund the fee they took, so they loose money.
http://www.2checkout.com/community/support/topic.php?id=57&page&replies=8
2Checkout is the biggest risk in my business chain, not because i am doing anything wrong, but because they will give back money for no reason, i have even had money refunded to people who just asked for a refund, even after i proved an item was delivered, i have even had refunds issued to buyers on the same day the tracking said they got their item and i provided all the proof to 2CO!
I have a clear return policy on my site and there is a note in every package. I allow buyers 30 days to return goods for a refund, after which i say all sales are final and as items come with 1 year warranty so they can be fixed if they stop working. Guess what i have had buyers contact 2CO after like 6 months and the CS gave them 2CO address informed them to place the order no. on a note with the item and they would happily refund the buyers money after item arrived. This IS NOT ACCEPTABLE! No other company that facilitates payments does this.
My business is not a damm rental shop and a buyers payment is not a security deposit that is then refunded when a item is returned after like 6 months!
I agree i would take a chargeback any day, i mean at least the credit card companies would reverse the charge and i would be protected, i would be out $11, but at least i wouldn’t be out $150!
I joined 2CO because i needed a someone to help facilitate payments fast, i will leave 2CO because they refund just as fast. It is my belief that i would not be the first vendor that was actually making a sizable amount of money to leave 2CO just because there is no vendor protection and 2CO refund policy is just ridiculous. If 2CO is hoping to actual compete with PayPal and such companies to retain vendors that produce significant amount of sales, they will fail miserable as no person would ever want their successful business to be associated with a company that, in the end, works against you. 2CO will continue to make their money by having numerous small sites doing small volumes of transactions.
2CO you guys are great to help start a business, will always be appreciative of that, but your own policy makes it impossible for any vendor selling tangible goods to remain with you in the long run.
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I never come to know all of this, if what other vendor tale is true here. I will reconsider to hold my account with 2checkout.com as I totally agree that I ready to accept fraud but not in this kind of manner. (return product after used for 6 months?!) it is ridiculous.
I choose 2checkout.com is because of the Visa verified and master securecode feature which turn out to transfer the unauthorised use of card risk to issuant bank and not the merchant. But seems like 2CO policy didnt’ take any advantage on this but just simply refund when customer need to?
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I had a sale just refunded yesterday, the tracking shows the package to be enroute, i replied to the buyers email, 2CO has the tracking number and guess what, the 2CO rep refunded for ‘No Contact from Vendor to buyer’. I can prove i contacted the buyer, but regardless as the tracking shows the persons package enroute, the 2CO rep should not have refunded the purchase.
Now i have to make sure the buyer repays by informing the buyer i will contact his local police department if he doesn’t (as it would be theft) and 2CO will take another cut for the repayment.
I want a answer from the 2CO staff: WHY DO YOU AND YOUR POLICY WORK AGAINST YOUR VENDORS?
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Well, I read all this with MUCH interest.
I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that a credit card was the responsibility of the OWNER ………..UNTIL THEY REPORT IT MISSING OR STOLEN………in which case the issuing bank stops the card completely. Is 2co not processing ‘live’ as such.
But I am a mere woman so wouldn’t know much….hehehehehehe
Just what I am told anyways.
Happy days all
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I would concur with the above statements that say that 2CO seems to worry more about the customers that DO NOT pay anything to 2CO than vendors who DO pay fees for every transaction made via 2CO.
I am also irritated that every time I converse via tickets or emails I have to request 2CO staff to sign their correspondence. For some reason, 2CO staff fails to include even their first names in the signature block.
An official reply from 2CO to an issue involving potential criminal behavior of certain 2CO buyers (and every fraudulent debit/credit card transaction is a felony, correct me if I’m wrong) has to include the name of the person stating the official position of the company in regards to each incident. Otherwise, we have a case of collective corporate responsibility that actually means no responsibility of anyone in particular.
By the way, I believe that all emails are sent via the ticket system anyway, so I don’t understand how emailing to fraud@2co.com would expedite the process or how it can be considered as different avenue for communications).
I agree with my colleagues that 2CO needs to protect their partners’ and clients’ interests first and foremost (and vendors are the only 2CO’s partners and clients in the customer-2CO-vendor equation), and need to put up a sign notifying buyers that 2CO is not letting thieves and people using chargeback as the argument to extort as much as possible from vendors get away with this practice AND would prosecute such offenders if at all possible.
I do appreciate 2CO’s efforts in catching potential fraudulent offenders, as some obviously fraudulent cases are detected and action taken before. A black list of such customers would be a great idea that would save some other vendors from fraud.
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Please take a look at Kristin’s latest post on the blog: Consumer Fraud
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I’d like to reply to your question about emailing fraud@2co.com
Yes it does turn into a ticket on our end, but it goes directly to the fraud department to review and reply to. It doesn’t have to go through the channels of the customer care department, so should be handled quicker then if you were to go that route. And on your end all you have to do is send the email, as opposed to submitting a ticket.
Emailing fraud@ guarantees the issue will be handled by a fraud rep, with possibly a quicker response time, and is easy as sending an email.
thanks
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As I failed to post a comments on the article of Consumer Fraud, I am going to put my words here.
Yeah I agree with Kristin it is always hard to become a middle man when this kind of things happened.
Actually with the introduced of VISA VERIFIED and MASTER SECURECODE, it should have address the “UnAuthorised Charges” type of consumer fraud. As a PIN has been assigned to a user that whenever they made their purchase online they have to present the secret PIN/password in order to grant the charges. It is a digital signature for the credit card holder in another way. Correctly if I am Wrong. In our country Malaysia these has been almost fully implement by all of our local bank as the fraud rate here is very high (ashame of that). And as the policy stated by the bank, The risk of CHARGEBACK would actually liable to credit card holder whenever they using the VISA VERIFIED or MASTER SECURECODE to make their purchase online. So with this 2 methods widely use around the world, it will eventually overcome the CARD NOT PRESENT problem and i personally think that PIN/PASSWORD is always more secure than a signature.
When come to a case that other than “Unauthorised Charge” type of Customer fraud. For example,
1.customer would pretend not having received the purchased items and demand for a refund although they have actually got it.
2.customer pretend to not satisfy with the products after use the products and demand for refund.
For above 2 case, first i would like to suggest 2checkout.com to create a sets of DISPUTE Rules and Regulations.
1. Built a Dispute Area that allow buyer to open a dispute whenever there do not satisfy with the service or product purchase from the vendor. Then Vendor and Buyer will interact each other in this area to resolved the case. The conversation between buyer and vendor here will eventually become a solid evident to the Issuing bank when the arbitration between Vendor and Buyer is failed.
2. 2checkout.com to set a timeframe that allowed buyer to create their dispute. For instance, 30days from the purchased date AND Customer need to initiate the Return goods policy within 3 days after they sign for the acceptance of goods from courier company (fedex or local courier service). Any complaint after this period will not be entertaint. This is to against those buyer that trying to buy a product (like clothes, accessories) and pretend not satisfy with the products after they went for their annual dinner or party >.< (You may think this is ridiculous, but I can assure you that there is someone does the same things out there).
3. A BASIC and clear return policy. Whenever Buyer want to get a refund, they need to shipped the product back to the Vendor in an “ORGINAL CONDITION”.
4. A refund will only initiate after buyer has post the products back to vendor and have vendor received it and sight for the “ORGINAL CONDITION”. Buyer is encourage to get a few Photo from the products before the packaging to keep as evident in case Vendor trying to fraud the buyer that the goods has not being shipped back as their “ORIGINAL CONDITION”.
I don’t know what I have suggested here is being useful or pratical. But I think a FAIR rules has to be considered in both Vendor and Buyer situation. Although we have to accept fraud to be part of our business risk as vendor as long as Credit Card company NOT fully solved their card NOT present problem (by fully implement VISA VERIFIED and MASTER SECURECODE will be solved this issue?), 2checkout.com as our vendor’s close partner must make sure we has been treated FAIR in this game.
At least, I found that, 2checkout.com don’t have a proper channel and Policy to protect the vendor when chargeback that other than “Unauthorised Charge” happened (case 2).
Therefore, I urge 2checkout.com to look into this matter seriously as buying power is the successfully business story but what is the use of buying power when the vendor decided to leave one by one because of the unfair rules? or increase their selling price to Sky HIgh price to protect themselve against the Fraud Lost? The victim will be finally to those “GOOD AND RESPONSIBLE” Buyer.
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The same thing happened to me recently. A buyer bought an piece f software from me, after using it for about a month, during which we have exchanged numerous support emails regarding the software itself, the buyer suddenly decides it does not want to use it anymore, calls 2Checkout claims he never got a response from me, I respond promptly, buyer calls again, 2Chekout as expected refunded him without a dispute.
I tought I was mistreated but when i read the 6 months horror story above this is definitely a deeper issue.
I am not against refunding certain clients, I am against refunding clients who have received the proper service for their money, and I am definitely against clients who make fake claims to get a refund and against 2co refunding without hearing what the vendor has to say.
This behaviour from 2co clearly shows that 2co is oriented towards increasing its profits and not towards increasing its services for the vendors and this reflects not only in the refund policy, but in the features, and support options available.
I can do with the features and with the support options and indirect arrogance but I can not do with their orientation towards profit in the detriment of their clients (vendors) that’s why I am now seriously considering avangate.
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Oh no, no, no.
First of all, here’s a little history for those of you accusing 2Checkout of being profit-oriented before all else:
We’ve never, since our first vendor signed up in June 2000 had a rate increase. In fact, we actually had one rate DECREASE in December 2003. And interchange rates (which 2Checkout pays out of the transaction fees) have increased 13 times since then or fragmented into categories less than beneficial to our bottom line.
Unless you are a super-enormous merchant you pay authorization, settlement AND refund transaction costs to your processor in addition to the interchange portion that gets divided up between the associations and the issuing banks.
I’d suggest someone do the math on just what it costs to issue a refund to a customer.
We bear the burden of cost-per-contact expenses (every phone call, ticket and email costs money to handle regardless of the reason for the contact). A refund *IS* a settlement. A high refund percentage can also directly affect how much of 2Checkout’s cash flow is held on reserve by our own processor and the length of time it takes to cycle.
In short, refunds cost money.
A non-refunded sale is the most profitable type of sale from everyone’s perspective. To think otherwise shows a lack of awareness of how merchant account fees are typically structured and absolutely no weight given to the cost of talking to the consumer at all. The only way a refund could possibly save us money is if we are 100% sure we’re issuing that refund in order to prevent a chargeback from occurring.
I’ve raised your concerns with our Customer Care Managers and they are creating guidelines that address the apparent quickness with which our reps appear to be pushing the refund button. Your constructive criticism is welcome and will be introduced at our next management meeting.
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I don’t know, perhaps what kristin said is right in the point of view of 2checkout.com. But to me, it seems the situation is using our cost + profit to cover 2checkout.com risk.
If refund is yield with consumer getting back the money and supplier get back the item, it still not hurt. But Imagine, if the case is supplier can’t get back the item while customer get back the money by just simply claim that they didn’t received the purchase item or didn’t shipped back the item that they have purchased.
What I am saying here is not I am to expect not to have lost due to fraud when doing online business, but what i want to highlight, 2checkout.com should look into a way to not to prevent but minimize the “unreasonable” refund occurs.
Look at kristin statement, it seems like this is not the area of 2checkout.com concern while what they concern is the outcome which will involved bearing a dispute charges while customer issue a chargeback.
Do you think you in my point can accept that a business partner trying to tell me that “I am rather issue a refund without investigating instead of involved myself in the chargeback dispute”.
Cause the “former”, supplier will be the only one who suffer lost while the later will have a very high chances to cause both 2checkout and supplier to suffer lost.
This is why i spending time in writting a previous post without getting back any feedback. The answer is as simply as 2checkout.com having a very diffrent point of view and concern than what we are as a vendor.
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As a customer care rep, I know one thing that would help us in avoiding issuing refunds would be suppliers placing notes on the orders. Although it may be time consuming for suppliers, it would help dramatically to reduce refunds on intangible goods. If a supplier receives a request from 2Checkout to send a customer a download link, send it through the order notes. By sending links this way, our customer care reps can see that you have responded to the issue, not to mention that it the supplier now has started an email trail we at 2Checkout can track. Many times, we are able to provide the link to the customer via an alternate email address or another method and avoid issuing a refund.
One thing that will also help to reduce the number refunds on instantly available downloads, is to have the suppliers OK 2Checkout to provide the download link to the customer and to prove the link to 2Checkout. I know of 2 suppliers who have dramatically reduced the number of refunds by providing the link to 2Checkout so that we may provide it to the customer. Most customers purchasing “instant” downloads are less likely to request a refund if we can provide the link to them, rather than having to send an email to the supplier to request they provide the link.
Mike had mentioned an issue with “friendly fraud” that possibly could have been resolved differently if there had been notes on the order documenting the correspondence with the customer. As I don’t have the order number for the order in question, there may have been notes. It is much easier for me, and other customer service reps, to say to a customer, “But, insert name, from the emails you had been sending to, insert supplier, it seems you were happy with the service you were receiving.” It also helps when we can show a customer in an instance where they say the order wasn’t placed by them, that they have been corresponding with the supplier concerning the order.
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Julie’s new blog post Adding Sale Comments, shows how to add comments to sales, as ricks recommends.
I’d also like to recommend that everyone read Kristin’s post Consumer Fraud if you haven’t already.
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There are many things our suppliers can do to avoid having refunds issued on orders. First and foremost, is to frequently check their emails. While many think that 2CO is quick to issue refunds, we are also quick to allow the supplier (in nearly every single case) to resolve the issue before any refund is issued. Anytime a customer contacts us requesting a refund on an order, the supplier is immediately notified requesting prompt resolution. Unfortunately, the reason for the majority of the refunds being issued is due to a non-responsive supplier. As “ricks” stated, if suppliers are responding, it would be of great benefit that they document this within the sale in question so we have this documentation to provide the customer and have something to back ourselves and our suppliers up.
Many people often confuse a refund with a cancellation as well. A lot of people do not realize that if an order is canceled before the funds transferred, our fees are not applied to the supplier. If a customer contacts us requesting to cancel the order before the card has actually billed/funds transfer, we will immediately do so. If the card has already billed, and it’s actually classified as a ‘refund’ we will always contact the supplier requesting resolution. In few cases, where a customer is extremely irate and has threatened a Bank Assisted Dispute (Chargeback) or has their card issuer on the line with them ready to initiate a dispute, we MAY proceed with the refund to avoid the dispute, which would of course create additional fees that would be transferred to the supplier. However, even in these cases, chances are, we will contact the supplier for resolution first.
As a Senior Customer Care Agent with 2CO, I am always willing to answer questions, and always welcome comments or concerns. 2Checkout has come a long way in the Customer Care area in recent years, we are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every day of the year. There should be no problem speaking with someone here at anytime. Our numbers, address, and links to our ticket system are all over our site, but just for sakes sake here it is again:
2Checkout.com, Inc.
1785 O’Brien Drive
Columbus, Ohio 43228
http://www.2Checkout.com
voice: 614.921.2450
toll-free: 877.294.0273
fax: 614.921.2451
toll-free fax: 866.921.2451
toll-free from UK & Northern Ireland: 871.871.8283
Submit an online support ticket:
https://support.2co.com/deskpro/newticket.php
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My experience is that 2checkout’s fraud guys are pretty lame in defending merchants. The problem is, it’s not their money. Why do they care if they refund 100 bucks and lose 5 bucks? They save themselves the hassle of defending the merchant, and it’s the merchant who loses 95 bucks. It’s happened to me several times.
The problem is that over the long term people get wise. Savvy people know already that you can get anything for free from a 2co seller. Just order, wait for it to arrive, then call 2co and shout “fraud”. The magic word will get you a refund regardless of the merit of your claim. Or just claim it doesn’t do what it’s supposed to, and same result. Refund. It doesn’t matter about the merit of your claim, they roll over every time.
As the level of such customers grows, 2co’s failure to stick up for its merchants is sewing the seeds of its own failure. If you cannot trust the payments made through it not to be refunded willy nilly, then you need to move elsewhere.
My company in the UK has used Worldpay for 6 or 7 years, and they pass any chargebacks to us to defend. We’ve won every one we defended.
It’s a shame Worldpay doesn’t operate in my current country. I’m just waiting until i have enough trading history here to get a merchant deal so I don’t have 2co giving my money back to various shysters and then saying they’re doing it to help me. Tosh. I have run an online business for 7 years, and if they would let me fight the chargebacks, I’d win them just like in the UK.
2co needs to address these problems or it’ll turn into a free for all. Giving away my software for free is NOT helping me, it is hurting me.
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2CO has also been in business on the Internet for over 7 years and never would have gotten to the point they are if it weren’t for the personal attention we give to our vendors, and the over and above abilities to stop fraud before it deposits.
That said however, there has been far to many times where our Customer Care agents have canceled so called fraud sales when we shouldn’t have. Our fraud agents have been guilty of the same. For years we had CC agents handling a portion of our fraud calls. The reason for this was because we did not have the man power in our Fraud Department to handle the volume of sales that needed reviewed on top of the phone calls coming in.
The growth and continuing effort to further mitigate what needs manual review versus systematical review have come a long way in providing a better investigative mindset. And also gives us more leverage to further assist vendors in our combined goal of decreasing losses. Because of these changes, and forward steps toward our goals our fraud analysts and investigators are now handling 100% of the incoming “fraud” claims.
I was here at 2CO when there were just a few of us, and it was easier to be on the same page. Through that beginning stage as I mentioned earlier, we gained trust with vendors because we decided from the beginning that a vendor’s business is our business. Thats the bottom line, and so when I deal with an inquiry from a vendor and the trust level is acceptable I am going to more often then not side on what the vendor decides is best for a particular sale, or sales. This is the mentality I develop into my fraud team. Now that we as a team are handling 100% of the fraud claims volume I am confident we will make great strides in improving in the areas we have previously lacked.
And so it is my recommendation that you lean on our fraud team, fraud@2co.com and if you’re not happy with the way they are handling your issue/s, ask for it to be escalated to team lead, or myself.
The bottom line is I don’t want our vendors to think 2CO has the mentality of “our way or the highway”. That absolutely couldn’t be further from the truth, because if it weren’t for you, we’re not here! And so I do my part on my end to instill the mentality of my team that we’re here for the vendors. We’re working for you, but its a combined effort.
There may be some savvy fraudsters out there, we’ll just have to out-savvy them.
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@2CO Staff
Did you notice that there is no positive posts regarding your refund service. I agree with all Members here. 2CO doesn’t care of the vendors. My personal experience is several “immediate” refunds. 2 of them were $500
And it was always the same answer (if any answer at all) from 2CO customer service:
“This is a bank assisted dispute, which is a forced refund to the bank
requested by the card holder. 2 checkout has no choice, but to refund
when this happens.”
The most cases it was Lisa Pruitt <lpruitt@2co.com>
If you need the sale numbers, I can post them here. But I don’t think it will help me to return my money.
Once again, the most refunds are “immediate”. I can’t even respond anything. Customer requests refund – customer receives refund. That is not taking “care” of 2CO vendors.
I understand that every case is unique and there are always 2 sides, but every “fair” refund for me is the step out from 2CO. And as you see, I’m not the only one here. So guys, please make your management meeting ASAP and take into consideration our “constructive criticism”. Otherwise a lot of people will leave
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First, I hope you understand the difference between a Bank Dispute, and a refund. A refund is made by 2Checkout while a Bank Assisted Dispute (or chargeback) is issued by the card holder’s bank. You asked why we didn’t notify you of the refund request but 2Checkout was not contacted by the card holder. The card holder contacts their bank for a request of funds return and reason. 2Checkout (and every other company) gets the BAD and for reason of Service the BAD fee gets passed to the vendor.
2Checkout will initiate a dispute with the bank on the vendor’s request. Vendors selling tangible goods have proof of delivery most times. If the address where the goods were delivered is the same as the address the bank has on file, the vendor is more likely to win that case.
Vendors selling intangibly however, is a different ball-game altogether. Obviously there are many different types of intangible products/services. A chat room conversation is most likely not going to be enough proof of customer approval of services provided.
That said however, when a project is being done for a customer then maybe its a good idea for the vendor to break the project down into stages. When 1 stage is complete, get the buyer’s approval and document that approval. Stage 2 is done, again get the buyer’s approval and document it once again. And so on until the project is finished. This way you will at least have something in writing from the customer that they approved what was being done for them. That at least would give us something to show the bank when the dispute comes through.
Issues like this are unfortunate. This is not a case of 2Checkout not taking care of our vendors. Internet sellers don’t have a lot of resources to combat such an issue. If you were not going through 2Checkout and were on your own, vendors would still run into the same circumstances.
Vendors should be proactive with the customers. Know the customer and respond promptly to our customer service requests. Keep records of conversations with customers. Document as much information as possible about the transaction and the customer, including emails and other correspondence.
To initiate a recovery of funds contact our chargeback department or customer care department. We will assist in answering your questions and will attempt to recover funds when possible.
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“Vendors selling tangible goods have proof of delivery most times. If the address where the goods were delivered is the same as the address the bank has on file, the vendor is more likely to win that case.”
Dear Sebbe,
What about when the client enters another delivery address in the shipping address?
What happens then? We ship the product to the address where the client asked, we have a delivery proof but we cannot use it because the bank wants a proof at the address the bank has on file.
What then?
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I would like to extend Maria question that the address that we saw on the sale detail, is it the filing address of the bank? (as for my understanding, the basic anti fraud is to match the billing address that being key in by the buyer to the one that in the VISA or MASTER network?).
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maria and jason
you bring up a good question here. First lets make sure everyone knows what the AVS code is. It is the billing address the credit card company has on file for the card holder. So for an order where the AVS matches on an order for a tangible product being sent to the same address, you will want to have signed proof of delivery. That will give us something to assist you with when fighting a dispute.
Now, if the order is going to a separate address, its different. And all depending on what the dispute code we receive from the bank, we may or may not be able to fight the dispute. Keep in mind that some disputes are un-disputable. Unfortunate and perhaps unfair, but we’re talking business and we all know not everything is fair. I can’t come on here and tell you guys that we can have an answer to absolutely everything. I’m a bottom-line person and if the answer is sometimes NO, then the answer is no.
However, I will do everything i can to get you helpful assistance.
If you are sending a product to an address different than the billing address, we’re going to have to follow different procedures than that if the billing address matches the shipping.
Another thing I wanted to mention in regards to the AVS code. The only time we get an AVS response is for US orders, some UK orders, and some Canada orders. That will be the only time we receive an AVS response.
I think what everyone needs to understand is that every dispute is different. There are many different elements to a BAD. We depend on the code we receive from the Bank, and the different codes tell us what can be done, what has to be done, and whether or not we have a course of action. Again, sometimes we do, other times we do not.
In ending, 2CO who accepts credit card payments, as well as our suppliers run the risk of receiving Bank Assisted Disputes.
Most suppliers will factor potential losses into the cost of doing business.
Example: a Supplier providing carpentry work will see less fraud then a supplier selling an ebook. (I’m just using ebooks as an example) Because the “fraudster” is going to feel secure in being faceless. As a supplier of ebooks I am going to take that into consideration.
2Checkout does not initiate the process of a dispute. The process is passed down to us from the issuing banks.
2Checkout will assist a supplier to put together the information needed to dispute a BAD, when able.
Give clear and a detailed description of product or service. Keep good communication. Both between the buyer and 2Checkout when it’s been brought to your attention that the customer has contacted 2CO for inquiries.
This is an issue we are forever attempting to make as understandable as possible. Our efforts will not diminish. When updates, changes, and further knowledge is available, our suppliers will be notified.
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Hi Sebbe, Thanks for your explanation. A very much appreciate for this. After so many days of debate on this title, finally I understand some detail on the procedure and the process. Some of it is I would like to clarify and some of them are those new to me. I feel much more ease after all the clarification from 2co’s helpfull staff.
For your all information, 2co just help me to identify a recent fraud before i shipped anything to the customer. I mean this manual fraud review mechanism is something that I need to give a credit to 2Co that other don’t have.
Unfortunately, for the fraud case which customer try to tell a lie to the issuing bank to initiate the Bank assist dispute, we(vendor) and 2CO have a limited things can do to fight for the dispute although we always can have proof of delivery for selling tangible good cause it may come to a case that the delivery address is diffrent from the CC billing address. For those who selling intangible good is having a even higher risk as there is nothing to be proof for the product has been delivery to the customer.
Nevertheless, I am glad that i have get to understand that 2co actually work together with us as vendor when there is a BAD happened. For other cases, I think we as a vendor only can think of some other way to minimize our lost like
1. increase profit margin to cover up the fraud case.
2. Try to get more information from customer before any sales established. I mean at least you get a phone number which you can try to call the customer up before you shipped any thing to them.
3. Set a risk level that you can take, for example if your shop typically order is between 100~200USD and suddenly there is a order which end up with 500USD, then you have to make a decision to whether accept or denied the sales or ask customer to use other way for the payment like bank in or bank draft.
This just my little bit of thought and i actually practising on it, while i am still new to the e-commerce world, i do not dare to claim what I share here is true. But, Hey! is better to do something then nothing right?
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Hello
Why I don’t expect 2Checkout to win every single charge dispute, we could at least expect them to TRY.
Just got it by a chargeback from outside the USA.
Despite providing proof of shipping and delivery, the reply from 2Co was:
We would not be able to challenge this dispute. It is an overseas order and does not have the AVS match required by the bank to challenge this dispute.
This is confusing. How can this bank requires AVS check to challenge a dispute when it didn’t provide one ??
So my suggestions here for 2Checkout:
1/ Realize that by not even trying to dispute such chargeback your are contributing to the increase of so call friendly fraud.
2/ You should also clearly states in your terms of services that you won’t dispute any chargeback on transaction without AVS check, ie that 2Checkout is a free for all frauders from outside the US and UK since that the only countries for which AVS check is currently available.
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Fabsand,
There appears to be a misunderstanding of the situation. It’s not that we do not choose to fight the dispute in instance of a non AVS match, it’s that we cannot.
At their discretion, the issuing bank may refuse to allow us the option of challenging the BAD. This is one of the factors that stops many online services from accepting international orders at all. As Sebbe mentioned, we depend on the code we receive from the Bank, and the different codes tell us what can be done, what has to be done, and whether or not we have a course of action. Again, sometimes we do, other times we do not. 2Checkout is not always permitted the chance to challenge the fraud related BADs that we absorb the cost of ourselves on the behalf of our vendors.
2Checkout has chosen to accept the risk involved with working with the international community in order to enjoy the rewards that it brings. Our suppliers are not obligated follow suit, and you may disallow any countries you wish to insulate your company from the limitations placed on merchants by credit associations. There is a wealth of opportunity afforded to businesses by the advent of e-commerce, but the unfortunate truth is that these opportunities also carry unique risks. Please understand however that we do not provide a ‘free for all’ at the expense of our vendors, we face these risks together as we attempt to grow both our businesses in a fledgling marketplace.
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e,
You miss the point here. How can the reason for not being able to dispute the chargeback be that the issuing bank requires AVS match, when the transaction has been done using a card not supporting AVS check ? In other words the issue bank doesn’t provides AVC check but requires a AVS match for a chargeback dispute? This is 100% inconsistent.
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Fabsand,
I understand the point quite well. Yes, the policy is inconsistent, perhaps even unfair. However your previous post asserted that 2Checkout has the option of disputing BADs in these instances, while we do not. It’s not that we do not choose to fight the dispute in instance of a non AVS match, it’s that we cannot. At their discretion, the issuing bank may refuse to allow us the option of challenging a BAD.
Your frustration is understandable, and we do sympathize with our vendors in these instances. It is difficult to feel as if another party holds all the cards. Yet while the deck seems stacked against us, it is done in the interests of the consumer, and is a condition of the business models our companies operate within.
Our goal at this point is to establish a rapport and dialogue with our vendors, to explore ideas and innovations. We hope that it will allow us to work together more efficiently within the system, rather than lament that which we are unable to change.
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Well here are some suggestions:
- Since you are supposed to support Verified by Visa and MasterCard Secure code programs, it would be nice for us to know in the transaction details page if the payment is or is not protected by any. The same way we are informed if the transaction as a CVV and/or AVS match, we should be informed if it’s protected by Verified by Visa or MasterCard Secure code. This will allow us to make a rational decision on those payments without AVS support.
- And please stop approving transactions that have an invalid CVV response. Any vendor in its right mind will cancel them. So why do you approve them after review anyway ?
Regards
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Hi,
In this point i would like to clarify on something, Most of my sales now is out of US and UK. Is that mean, I will not get any kind of protection of the fraud monitoring which typically use the technic of CVV and AVS?
Moreover I am confuse on this “please stop approving transactions that have an invalid CVV response”. 2CO will approved the transaction that have invalid CVV?!
How about the manual fraud review by the fraud review department? If this do contribute on something to reduce the fraudulent case, I would appreciate if staff can describe a little bit on how the manual review mechanism can protect us.
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“2CO will approved the transaction that have invalid CVV?!”
Sure, they always do. I had another one just 3 days ago. The “funning” thing is they reviewed and approved it after I cancelled it.
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Hi everyone, i just came across this thread and have something interesting to bring to all your notice. We just had an incidence when a customer asked for refund stating we have not delivered the product. Now our product is a software, the client has been seeking support advice post installation which by any means is not possible unless you have the software actually installed. On being messaged by 2co staff regarding the issue i posted all communication emails on the thread there but what i see after few days a response “customer called for refund no response from supplier so i issued the refund for customer”. Our site policy states clearly we follow a no refund policy. We provide a completely free fully functional software which can be used for a month before a customer has to place an actual order.
I certainly do feel something needs to be done on the part of 2CO to secure seller interests as well who are bringing all the money in. We have been using 2co for almost 2 years now and i have never had a feeling that a customer can’t cheat us. It is as simple, place the order, get the serial key and deny the order later on.
Regards
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An old saying in fraud prevention is “there is no silver bullet”.
Extensive analysis has been made on CVV failures. In the past we’ve had as high as 6% of all orders with a failed CVV response. More then 90% of that 6% wasn’t fraud.
And how about all of those orders with a positive CVV response that actually are fraud. Most often fraudsters have the CVV code. As well as the address so to get a positive response on the AVS.
These tools are used of course, and play a role in combating fraudulent transactions. However we’ve moved out of the stone age, and many other facets come into play when combating fraud. Suggesting us to cancel every single CVV failure is like suggesting we cancel every order where the IP address doesn’t match that of the billing address.
In the end, these are your sales too. If you don’t feel comfortable fulfilling an order with a CVV response as a failure and an IP address of California while the billing address is New York, then don’t. The supplier is the expeditor and has the final say on whether they do not want to accept a sale.
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Oh say it isn’t so!..I wish I had read this thread before signing up with 2CheckOut!! Don’t get me wrong, I love the support staff etc, but am frankly, apalled, by what I’ve been reading regarding your ”refund” policy, or maybe that’s the true ”customer” support if y’know what I mean…
Anyway, dunno if I should mention it here, but am now going to list MoneyBookers as my primary processor, enticing customers with discounted rates if they pay via MoneyBookers, they rarely, if ever, refund unjustly…
The only reason why I mentioned them here is to ask, how come they can manage it and not you guys??
With so many countries out there ”notorious” for fraud, would it be better to start banning these countries from my ’accepted’ list? I think so, otherwise there’s a potential 2CheckOut would refund without even contacting me…!
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2CheckOut Staff: I know for a FACT that ”Verified By VISA” (VBV) authorization serves to deter customers from making fraudulent transactions, AT TIMES. I also know for a FACT that the VBV and MasterCard SecureCode can be BYPASSED from authenticating the transaction at all!..How? Take the case of UK credit cards, those issued and secured by Halifax, has the option of ”ACTIVATE LATER” in the VBV dialog, upon choosing ”ACTIVATE LATER” the transaction is processed anyway and the fraudulent customer gets away with it.
Furthermore, we have a plagiarism-checking service online, after receiving orders from clients, we receive their files/documents and run it through our unique system for a plagiairsm check. After this our system generates an Originality Report. I wanted to know, what is the most secure/documented way to send this report link (Report is hosted on our servers) to the customer? Should I send it to them directly, or should I send it to 2CheckOut and they send it to the customer as was suggested? Which way would result in a safer transaction for me (the vendor)?
Any suggestions/help would be appreciated.
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By the way, the VBV example citing Halifax mentioned in my post above refrences not an International card from some backwater country, but a UK Issued Credit Card.
SheeeeeeeeeeeSh
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Hi Iplagerism,
You are welcome to ban sales to notorious countries if you so choose. You can do this by following the e-good allowable countries link on your home page. Here you can select what countries you would like to sell to and which countries you would not. Before you do start blocking countries, however, be sure to weigh how many good sales you will lose if you ban a country outright.
That is the important part to remember: Everything involved in business is finding the correct balance. We need to balance fraud vs. sales, refund vs. chargeback, restrictive vs. lenient. If you do not believe that we are being strict enough in our fraud requirements, there are usually steps you can take to make them more strict, such as selecting e-good countries or checking your orders and canceling them yourself if you feel that there is anything wrong with them.
Communication is also very important. We can better help you and your customers if you keep us informed about events effecting the order.
About Verified by Visa: We are not able to require people to sign up for VbV or SecureCode. This is the card issuing bank’s decision. There are some banks that require it, some that do not.
Julie
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Hi 2CO,
I think this forum is not good for your company, here the people presents their problems with your service and this is not a good reference for new sellers looking a merchant account (with credit cards).
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Incazone,
While you will see problems presented, you will also see solutions. There will be complaints, compliments, questions and answers. If you read the entirety of this thread you will see a few misunderstandings and clarifications.
This is an open conversation we’re having with our customers, suppliers, and the public at large. As such, we all have a lot to learn from each other. The fact that we’re having this conversation isn’t a bad thing. It’s proof that we’re willing to learn from each other.
Just to clarify one more thing: 2CO doesn’t offer merchant accounts. We offer an alternative to maintaining your own merchant account. To understand one of the advantages of this, you may want to read the following blog post:
PCI Compliance (2CO meets PCI requirements so you don’t have to!)
http://www.2checkout.com/community/?p=356
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I would like to mention that just the other day I had one of my sales refunded without giving me any chance to respond. I received this email:
A credit/refund has been issued to the customer on the following order.
”Sale: 37554xxxxx Additional comments: Vendor Failed to respond in an acceptable amount of time.”
I had never been contacted at all. so I replied to the email:
”Why has this order been refunded? I was never contacted about this at all!”
To which the Sales Rep responded with:
”I do apologize, it shows the customer was contacted and not you. The customer contacted us on the 1st of July claiming this order was fraudulent. I needed to refund the order to avoid a bank assisted dispute.”
This sale had been made over 2 weeks before, and the advertising I sell had already been provided to the customer. There was nothing I could do to fight it, and it is obviously fraud. In this case, not only do I eat the cost of the full refund, but also 2CO’s fees to me, AND the cost of the advertising that was sent (which my customer now got for free)!
This means that for example, if 2CO refunds a $100 order without contacting me, I lose around $155.50. This is unacceptable. 2CO needs to fight chargebacks just like Paypal and Google Checkout and every other processor out there.
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Brian,
I apologize for the delayed response here. We’re currently researching this issue and will be responding soon.
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Thanks. I noticed today that in my payments section, there is now an ”adjust” for $112.50. It says ”241 For order 37554xxxxx per SJones phull”. Can you explain this, it looks like I got the money back.
I’d also like to say that other than the problem in this thread, 2CO is a great processor and they are still at the top of my list. Now if you guys could just fix this issue I wouldn’t have any complaints at all.
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Brian, apologies for the error that was made to your account. Yes, the matter has been rectified. As I explained in my email to you its very possible the order was fraudulent. Unfortunately we did not follow the proper procedure in order to prove the card holder’s case.
I believe it is very important to set defined procedures in cases like this and going forward we will continue to follow these set procedures.
Brian, thank you for bringing this to our attention in a professional matter allowing us to rectify the issue.
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How about 2CO giving us the choice of how we would like to approach these things for our account? 2CO always give the reason that they refund quickly to avoid chargebacks, and that protects us, but in the vast majority of cases for us, it does not as the chargeback or refund is incorrect, reversed later, or we would have refunded it quickly anyway. I don’t care if it costs us an extra fee, due to it needing extra attention. I’d rather pay an extra $50 or $10/month or something and know that our payments are protected, than nothing and not really have a lot of protection.
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Julie with regards to
”You are welcome to ban sales to notorious countries if you so choose. You can do this by following the e-good allowable countries link on your home page. Here you can select what countries you would like to sell to and which countries you would not. Before you do start blocking countries, however, be sure to weigh how many good sales you will lose if you ban a country outright.”
This is untrue, take Nigeria as an example of HIGH fraud incidence. We have added Nigeria to our block list but 2checkout STILL process orders placed from Nigeria. Why? Sure the billing address is in the USA but the IP is clearly Nigeria and shouldn’t THAT be what you are basing the block on NOT the billing address they enter? If you did this the incidence of Fraud we receive would drop around 60% then do the same thing when it’s a ”Satellite Provider” and then that would drop it another 10%.
I will add that generally your fraud review department get these quite fast but I have cancelled them in most cases before they even get them.
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Well I cant tell you that Fraudsters love to use 2checkout because they know that 2CO will give them a refund just by saying they did not placed the order. This happend to me in the past with a client that lied and then went to 2CO and said he did not even knew my website, i had even emails send to 2CO where he answers me. 2CO should not give such an easy refund, at least not as fast because that attracts fraudsters. PayPal for example doesnt give a refund right away, you have to first talk to the client via the paypal website where they log all conversations. If the one doesnt answer or doesnt want to dispute they dont give it. My point is that they make it harder to get a refund to fraudster know they will have to deal with PayPal when they request a refund so they prefer faster and more less consuming ways to make fraud like 2CO.
If 2CO would check the IP from where the user ordered and then the IP from where he request the refund when he logs into the 2CO page, at least if IPs match or country they could now that the cliente is lying when he says he did not placed the order. Small way are very effective to know how is lying. Is really hard to understand why 2CO gives more value to the buyers then vendors. Vendors are the ones that attract the clients not otherwise.
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”If 2CO would check the IP from where the user ordered and then the IP from where he request the refund when he logs into the 2CO page”
2Checkout does do this. And nibb, I’m not sure which order/s you are referring to within your account. I see 1 order that you yourself refunded because the ”customer” contacted you claiming the order was fraud. I don’t see where you contacted 2Checkout about this order. Because if you did, we would have told you that whether the order is fraud or not, the card holder in this case will need to contact their bank for a refund. You were protected against a charge back on this particular sale in regards to a fraud dispute. Which is why you should have contacted 2Checkout before deciding on a refund. Keep in mind that this is not always the case, most times if we find the order to be fraud it will need to be canceled and refunded. This particular case however, the card holder would have needed to go the route of contacting their bank.
The other order that has come back on your account for fraud reasons within the last year was not a refund that 2Checkout made, it was a charge back issued by the card association. The order was fraud and no other company on the internet would have or could have done anything different than what was done.
2Checkout has no control over when a charge back is issued. Whether you choose to have the order disputed or not is up to you. Many times however, its not worth the time or money that it costs. Other times it is. That decision whether it is in your best interest to challenge the dispute, is a decision the supplier needs to make.
Lastly, it is important for you as a 2Checkout supplier to maintain good communication with us. Be it our Fraud, Customer care, or Charge backs department.
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Hi sebbe. Im not complaining. I could call myself a lucky guy. I think like i told before i only had 2 chargebacks in years. The orders i refund are because the client request a refund and i have a refund policy or because it did not passed my internal checking. If a client is not happy and requests a refund i prefer to give it because if not they contact their bank and i get a chargeback which hurts me more then just giving a refund.
As for the order i think you refer the one over 100$ that i refunded was just because it was plain fraud. I called the card owner a lady from Canada and she told she did not knew what my service or even website was. So i gladly told her that someone has her card details and did an illegal transaction. I told her to contact her bank and reissue a new card and said to her i would immediately proceed to make a refund to her card. She was very shock to hear that someone had her card details including phone and street address but appreciated the call.
If i had not refunded that money i would be a crock since i would know she did not do the order. And eventually she would had made a chargeback. I only do this manual processing with orders over 100$, the rest i let it to 2CO and it works well actually. Once an order did not passed the fraud test. I called 2CO and said i think that is a real order, they said not, that email made fraud before, i trusted 2CO and they where right the person never said anything or contacted again, he was a fraudster.
When i complain is about Cardholder Fraudsters. People that actually use their credit card, passes all checks because the order is real, then after using the service or receiving the product they just said they did not do the order and request a refund. That is the problem i see most people have, not from fraudster that stoled a card, but from real cardholders. I wish there is also a way to fight those type of chargebacks. Gladly my clients are happy customers but i also have to deal from time to time with real thefts, they of course order big amounts. I wish there was some kind or way to put as proof that he did get what he paid and that 2CO would accept it as a proof. Thats is my point.
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As for the order i think you refer the one over 100$ that i refunded was just because it was plain fraud. I called the card owner a lady from Canada and she told she did not knew what my service or even website was. So i gladly told her that someone has her card details and did an illegal transaction. I told her to contact her bank and reissue a new card and said to her i would immediately proceed to make a refund to her card. She was very shock to hear that someone had her card details including phone and street address but appreciated the call.
It’s nice to hear there are honest people out there and that you went out of your way to help this lady get her identity fraud taken care of. I recently spotted a charge for some web traffic hits site on a card I never use for online purchases. I’m still wondering how this could have happened as I rarely use that card at all. I deposit money in there and that’s pretty much it; its a savings account primarily. I have other debit cards which I use for purchases. Anyway I had to report the card as stolen so whoever it was couldn’t do it again but the process of calling the bank to stop payment is too easy. For example Bank of America even lets you do it online. I certainly hope that they keep track of that sort of thing.
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About cardholder fraudster i told before. I think Visa or Mastercard have a regulation in which cardholders can only request a certain amount of chargebacks in a year or period of time. After that they cant or their card is cancelled. Can someone confirm if that is true? Because I think that is the way they stop from people placing orders and then denying them. The exception of course is if you cancell the card because it was stolen.
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I will have to look into whether a customer has a limit on how many chargebacks they can request.
If a customer claims a transaction on their card to be fraud however, the card company is required to stop that card and have a new one issued.
And thank you for your reply as I now better understand your complaint. A valid complaint it is, as it is one of my biggest complaints as well. There are a couple of things I’d like to mention. First, if the card holder contacts their bank without first contacting 2Checkout then we are at the mercy of what the bank’s decision is. We can always challenge the dispute, but unfortunately it is the bank’s final decision.
Those times however when the customer first contacts 2Checkout to claim an order is fraud, if they contact us via our support desk, we are able to try and match their IP address up as well as other things with their original order. If the order is connected to other known fraud, then we know it to be fraud and we’ll cancel the sale. If however we determine the customer is claiming fraud falsely then we will take corrective action to try and save that sale.
Many times unfortunately, as a Ecommerce company, we do not have the same rights that a brick and mortar company has. In the Ecommerce world, the Merchant is liable, not the bank.
2Checkout does try to stop as much ”friendly fraud” as we possibly can. Sometimes however it is not always possible. And so we have to do our best to limit losses.
I hope this was helpful and anytime you need to contact me about a specific case please don’t hesitate to do so.
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Hi chellaul, regarding your post to ban the IP based on the country not the address why do you think 2CO is still the leader in providing international sales for international vendors? Why do you think so many people still use 2CO and will in the future? Because it accepts payments from anywhere in the world. Not like Paypal that only has a list of allowed countries. 80% of my buyers are not in that list.
What ou say about banning IPs just based on country or address cannot be true on real ecommerce. That would kill thousands of real sales. For example at least 60% of clients have a card that is not from they country or travel allot. I have a bank and credit card in at least 3 countries as well. That doesn’t mean i have to be in one of them everytime i make a internet purchase. And i make tons of internet buying.
For example, many, many US Stores now only accept US cards as payment. That has killed billions in $$$ sales. Personally i know at least 30 people that bought hardware in computer stores in the US and know they cant anymore because they dont have a US card, and tons of stores only ship to the Card Address. They turned to Amazon which doesnt give problems in this way.
So that kills real sales as well. I have tons of clients which are international ones, some of them have cards in their country, some of them lived in the US and have a US card, others live 6 months here, 6 months there. You cannot ban a sale based on country only or IP. The main reason someone pays something on or uses the Internet is because he is not really there. So that applies to traveling as well.
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Recently we have lose over $600 in a month. All orders were passed 2checkout fraud check & now they all are unauthorized. I know people are now using 2checkout to fraud merchants. We had passport of one of those client who claimed that the transaction was unauthorized & we won the dispute.
2checkout fraud check just seems to be a waste of time 25% of my sales orders are becoming fraud later so how they passes fraud check ?
Do 2checkout use verified by VISA & Mastercard source code ?
It is very annoying when you have sales over $500 you got it all in your card & after a month you get unauthorized claims, your balance goes – 500
& you get a mail from 2checkout collections dept. to send the due payment asap
even when your not a defaulter & even when your having a good sales record.
I think its very difficult to do business with……… It just gives a shock everyday.
May be paypal is better than 2checkout, when you have a fraud order in paypal, you’ll definitely get Inquiry by Paypal within 4 – 5 days for the fraudulent transaction so you don’t have to get troubled later. It will not ask you to refund like 2checkout , when you have spent all your balance & you suddenly have to pay all back.
I am searching for an alternative of 2co now.